FE: Santa Sangre was shot in Mexico City ?
AJ: Yes, in some of the supposed "dangerous" streets. You see prostitutes; that was the area we filmed. They say to me "don't go there, they'll kill you" l said, "Let them try" But I pay them, so they're happy I making a film in their street.
FE: The film is supposedly based on a real person.
AJ: Gojo Cardinas is the name of the man the film is based on, he is very famous in Mexico. He was a young person living with his mother, he killed thirty woman [sic] and then called the police. He buried the women in his garden, they put him in an asylum for ten years, the doctors said he was cured and he went out into society like a normal person. He started to study and he became a lawyer, a newspaperman, a novelist, married and has two children. You can talk to him- he's a normal person. When he was a criminal was another life, it was not him. The Real Gojo never lived his double life. He never knew. He thought he was a normal person. Now he only knows what the newspapers tell him, but he doesn't remember anything- it was not him, not reality. The reality was not real for him, like a fairy tale. He's very astonished- nobody's scared of him now because he's a very sweet man. In the film everything he does is not real. Even his mother is not real. Himself, he's free of doubt- but we don't know that he is free of doubt, maybe he's dreaming it as well. Maybe he never left jail! And then I say if a person can go out from madness it's a good thing because I think we are all mad in our civilization- our civilization is mad. But we can go out if we work. We have a lot of crime in our civilization. All my life-now l'm sixty- I've never known a day of peace. People kill all the time, all the time. One day we'll repent, we'll decide we are ill and then we'll stop killing. It will take ten years and then we'll be normal
FE: Uh, so do you think humans find redemption?
AJ: I think so. I am completely convinced because I found my oven redemption . I was also a killer, a psychological killer, a misogynynist, destroying woman. I was not able to love.
FE: And was this film part of the process of finding redemption?
AJ: Yes, on a lot of levels. Also in the relationship with my sons, all of whom appear in the movie, my family- the whole process, even that of returning to movies. This picture is like a subtle psychoanalysis.
FE: Is that why it took so long to write - six years?
AJ: I was putting a lot of myself into it, I was trying to find a very strong structure because I believe in structure; in order to improvise when I'm shooting I need a perfect structure. Then I was working on the producer, trying to bring him around to my way, not to his way, to change the script with only the money I had, how to do it without a lot of money.
FE: You seem to have had bad experiences with producers before like Allen Klein- 'The Holy Mountain' pretty much disappeared without a trace. . .
AJ: Yes. . listen, I don't know what happened to me. When I make pictures- even when l'm shooting - it's a scandal. The other day, to make a scene at Shepperton, I had to slap the executive producer I had to because he couldn't understand my images. (this is a reference to a new film called The Rainbow Thief, starring Peter O'Toole, Omar Sharif, and Christopher Lee plus a bunch of rats. More on this in a minute.)
AJ: I'm not logical, my logic is...broken. I'm broken in the logic of continuity of editing, of matching. . Logic is stupidity...When I'm making a film, I have my script- in one shot the chair is in one position, in the next shot they say to me, "You can't do that, in this shot the chair is here, you'll affect continuity." In myself, I know what I'm looking for in that image, and in that moment the chair is not important to me. I don't mind if it doesn't match. When you're shooting, and in every arena of life, you are fighting logic and form. And because l'm crazy, I still believe in Art, you need another position. For instance, in this picture I'm doing now, a person is living with a rat, and they say "This picture is too expensive." I ask "Why?" and they tell me they need to make an artificial rat to do everything the script is saying. And I say "But you're crazy, we'll use a real rat and we'll follow what the rat does!" "Oh, you'll improvise?" They're horrified! Sure I'll I improvise, the rat will improvise! I'll shoot what the rat does and change the script to fit! They went crazy- it took me two days to convince them not to use an artificial rat.
FE: Also at what point did you meet Claudio Argento [producer of Santa Sangre] ?
AJ: He was there from the beginning- he came to me and wanted to make a picture and then I offered this script, so we worked on this from the start.
FE: Were any of the images and ideas you'd had for a long time or did they just arise in shooting ?
AJ: For me, you finish a picture when the first copy comes to you . All the time you are changing, you are creating, it's a process of creation. Everything affects the film: the locations change it, the actors change it, the editing, the music - you never stop the process of creativity until the end. I like to take reality and put it into an imaginary context. But I work with real scenes- the prostitutes at the beginning, this is real; the man without the ear- I found a man without an ear. . . Then I mix it with the non-real. And when I take reality and put it in my work, reality becomes a masterwork. In Mexico there are masked wrestlers- the most famous is El Santo. He died and was buried in the mask. In all his life nobody knew his face. The fighter in the picture was real. The people who are fighting for the meat of the elephant are real people who are hungry. The mongoloids are real mongoloids, but they are acting. . .
FE: Was that real cocaine they were snorting?
AJ: [much laughter] No, it was sugar. It was acting! If I gave them cocaine, I will be in jail, they will be in jail, I will be killed by their fathers - their fathers were there while we were shooting. . . They are so poor, so they were very happy to be paid, and also happy just to do something. I told the actors to give them contact and encouragement all the time, because they lack courage. After one hour of this contact we started to shoot, and they were very happy, it was like paradise for them because they were well-fed and they loved the attention. I showed the rushes to them,- it was the most happy moment of the picture. Obviously I'm sad about them, but it's okay because it gave happiness to shoot with them. Society hides them and feels good about hiding them, but in myself I feel better because I gave them something to do.
FE: There are a lot of deformed people in your films.
AJ: I love them, I love them all. They're beautiful. To me, normal people are montstrous, because they are so similar. For me difference is what is Art, what is life. I don't like some, find it distressing. I don't call it deformity, it's. . natural imagination; nature has a big imagination. Maybe to some people they're monsters, but not to me. I find beauty only in "monstrosity". I can't be realistic- even when I walk down the street, I find monsters. Everywhere I have an exacerbated sensibility toward monstrosity. Whenever I see it, I'm happy. And anyway, nose, hair, ears, eyes- in the heart of normality, monstrosity is theft. Human flesh is strange.
FE: Where did you get the idea of the symbiotic relationship-the mother with her son's arms?
AJ: From my life with my mother. All my life I felt like that. She lived her life through me. She was a castrate woman by my father and she wanted to live her life through me.
FE: Was it difficult to conceal Blanca Guerra's arms in the scenes where Axel is substituting his for her 'missing' ones?
AJ: Yes, very difficult, every shot needs different angles, different positions to disguise them. But it works- Blanca and Axel were a good couple, because she held the sex of my son in her hands all the time- that's why they're doing so well. I approved the technique- it's not so moral, but it's like that! The incest thing worked well like that!
FE: The knife throwing stuff is pretty incredible also.
AJ: I hired a real knife thrower; the actresses were terrified, but they had to do it! He was the best in Mexico, this guy. Thelma Tixou the Tattooed Lady was petrified. . .and I had to shoot the scene twice! (laughs uproariously)
FE: There are plenty of horror influences in the picture...
AJ: Yes, there's the Invisible Man, and the Zombie scene is from Romero. I made some echoes, but I played with them. In Night of The Living Dead they were terrible persons coming back from the dead, and here they are beautiful women. It is anti-terror. In The Invisible Man he became and he suffered because he was invisible. Here he takes off his bandages and suffers because he doesn't like himself as a criminal. So here I am playing with horror, and at the same time I am making anti-horror.
FE: What about the elephant's funeral? Was that your personal farewell to the Tusk disaster?
AJ: I always hate that picture! It played a week in Paris, then nothing. The producer was a sieve, to rne. They ask for four or five million from the bank, and they give to you half a million dollars and the rest he put in his pocket. He wanted to buy a big Porsche- that's his love. And the picture- he wanted something to show to people. So I was in India without the possibility of ever doing what I wanted- I needed to finish the picture, because if I don't they say "He's not able to finish a picture." Then when we showed it, it was an impossible picture- we were promised one thousand elephants and we had seven elephantsl And he (the producer) promised a King Kong elephant, enormous, and we have one little one. Some people liked it, but, I hate it. .At that point I stopped making pictures, I hate the producer. It was made ten years ago; it took me ten years to make another film because I decided I wouldn't do a film just to make a producer rich again- I don't want to be in at situation where a producer can take all the money then say "I have no money, do whatever you can." They never sold it to any other country, and I am very happy about that- I don't want people to see it. Some people who saw it said it was good, because it is very spiritual. I did what I could, but it wasn't possible for me to do what I want.
FE: What othor projects have you got?
AJ: I have some ideas. I want to make Sons Of El Topo- he has two sons, like Cain and Abel, who are fighting with him, l gave the script to (producer Charlie) Lippincott. He said it was too long and too expensive and asked me to take out thirty pages, so I took out forty. It's a very clear script, very very professional . Also I am writing some kind of script where a philosopher of sixty years old finds a pupil - a beautiful young woman of twenty-five who is crazy, and she wants to get pregnant by the philosopher in order to give birth to the Messiah, the new Christ. I am very enthusiastic about making a real picture that takes place in Paris, in the Sorbonne or something like that. For this project I have a contract to produce it as well as a graphic novel, and that I will use to interest a producer. Working in Mexico is now finished for me- I want to work in Europe. I will work in Europe- Spain, Poland, England.
FE: Would you like to work with Dennis Hopper? You and he might get along.
AJ: I know him- for Santa Sangre l call him and said "Listen, I can give you $50,000 for one week's shoot." It's not bad, $50,000, eh? It was not enough for him. I thought he was a friend, but not now - he's changed. I saw his film Colors- ha!! A film about how cops are beautifull! I wanted him for the father in Santa Sangre but $50,000 was not enough.
FE: The Last Movie has similarities with your work.
AJ: At that time he was a big admirer of El Topo. When he shot that film of his, I had to help him out in the editing. He couldn't edit that movie. I worked two days without sleep on it because he had to show the picture to Hollywood. In two days I finished it. It was impossible, really. It wasn't bad what I did on that movie, but they changed it. I worked as a friend, to help him. To me that film was a magnificent piece, the idea about films are changing the landscape, about how we're moving from reality to unreality.
FE: What's going to happen with Santa Sangre in the US?
AJ: Idiocy! Things like the elephant's trunk ejecting blood are cut! Complete idiocy! And the stabbing of the tattooed lady is nearly all gone! I laugh to myself about the "great" crimes of Hitchcock- they are poor crimes, they are nothing to me! Television crimes! I wanted out of that. I want a bad taste, a violent crime with the Mexican dancing music and more blood, more! A fantastic crime!
FE: Do you enjoy the struggle involved in making such personal cinema?
AJ: Yes, it's always a fight, always pain. But what I really want now is to be my own producer. I can't stand having some looking over my shoulder with opinions. Like the Americans say, "Everyone has an opinon!" Then they need to follow you, they want approximations of your images, you ask for 100 extras and you get 20, you fight for nothing, you have to explain everything, they're trembling, trembling...then, they cut your picture! You have to make it for television, for children!
FE: Um, what does it feel like to be a legend?
AJ: (genuinely suprised) Tell me! I am a legend? I am a human being, but they make interviews, they bring me books. . .if I am a legend, I'll have to write my autobiography. I will give you Zen answer- if I am a legend, why don't you take a tea with me?
FE:Huh?
AJ: (slowly) If I am a legend, then why don't you take a tea with me?
FE: Uh, yeah...